Avali Species Doc

[NoreUhh]

This document is an introduction of Avali to upstream as a round-start species. I'm very open to criticism and feedback and can update the document if needed.

I'm bad at writing and have never written a design document before, so please forgive me ;-;

[K-Dynamic]

We still calling them Avali or Resomi?

[NoreUhh]

We still calling them Avali or Resomi?

Unless issues arise from them being called Avali, then they won't be called Resomi.

[fesdgsdahagdzf]

just want to point out that anaerobic blood is separate from copper blood (blue blood). currently, copper blood is used for arachnids, tarantulas, and crabs, while anaerobic blood is only utilized by vox. also, copper will poison vox, and will not help restore blood level (though the poison regeneration makes the poisoning negligible in most scenarios)

[NoreUhh]

just want to point out that anaerobic blood is separate from copper blood (blue blood). currently, copper blood is used for arachnids, tarantulas, and crabs, while anaerobic blood is only utilized by vox. also, copper will poison vox, and will not help restore blood level (though the poison regeneration makes the poisoning negligible in most scenarios)

Oh damn fr? I thought they shared the same. Interesting, thanks for pointing that out!
So to clarify, vox use iron pills instead of copper yeah?

[fesdgsdahagdzf]

So to clarify, vox use iron pills instead of copper yeah?

yes.

[RemFexxel]

I've left a few grammar and text suggestions in this review, but your pull request looks great.

Also, if I am not mistaken, you should edit SUMMARY.md to include a hyperlink to your proposal.

[beck-thompson]

There are some various issues I have with their abilities, but honestly that doesn't matter too much. The real issue I have is that because Avali have "pre established" lore (From what I know its unofficial but some people treat it like official lore) there end up being a lot of fights and arguments about them. I have seen it turn very ugly and is a hot topic issue on Starlight which I do not want to have upstream.

I'm not sure if this is possible to fully resolve, but the absolute minimum would be to change their name. I'm also not sure this is enough either as they would just be Avali in everything but name 🤔

[beck-thompson]

How cold specifically? Starlight has them at ~230k. I personally think this is much to cold as it makes no sense to be able to maintain that temperature when its around 310k on the station.

[NoreUhh]

Humans as a baseline are around 308k or 35C
Avali are roughly at 296k or 23C

This isn't something that is really set in stone either. IMO it's more reasoning to give them the resistance to cold / susceptibility to heat thing without just being like "oh yeah they got fur so they get fried easily" as the only reason.

I agree though, 230K would be way too low to make sense

[KillerTheFlareon]

There are some various issues I have with their abilities, but honestly that doesn't matter too much. The real issue I have is that because Avali have "pre established" lore (From what I know its unofficial but some people treat it like official lore) there end up being a lot of fights and arguments about them. I have seen it turn very ugly and is a hot topic issue on Starlight which I do not want to have upstream.

I'm not sure if this is possible to fully resolve, but the absolute minimum would be to change their name. I'm also not sure this is enough either as they would just be Avali in everything but name 🤔

Person who made Avali on SL here. Lore arguments are just a thing that happens since there's 2 main sources of lore-

• Official lore
  This is the lore directly written by the original Starbound creator of Avali, which is inconsistent in some places and pretty dry. It's typically used as a basis for-

• Unofficial lore
  This is lore that while is not written by the original creator, has done it's best to stick to the source material and build upon what the creator left behind. This is typically the secondary sources people use, and the one I, along with Happy reference is Todd's Avali Lore Guide.

Of course, considering Avali have been around so long many people will have different experiences, different interpretations of lore, ect ect. But that doesn't really matter so long as you stick to whatever source of lore you use, if any. Just gotta be consistent with the general themes considered universal for them
Eg. Cold, fluffy ammonia birds.

If mainstream and downstream races had something like a lore book written by people, it would likely lead to arguments as well since their lore would differ server to server, I should point out. Changing the name will not really do anything because people from downstream forks are going to recognize the sprites and go "Ah, Avali!"

[SirWarock]

The real issue I have is that because Avali have "pre established" lore (From what I know its unofficial but some people treat it like official lore) there end up being a lot of fights and arguments about them.

How would that even look? Do people make lore for their own avali character and then someone else goes and says "Erm, akschually, this is not trüe to ze lore of avalis!"?
Or does it also get in the way of balancing, where you cannot do certain changes to the species because it interferes with the lore?
Both would sound pretty horrific.

[beck-thompson]

If mainstream and downstream races had something like a lore book written by people, it would likely lead to arguments as well since their lore would differ server to server, I should point out. Changing the name will not really do anything because people from downstream forks are going to recognize the sprites and go "Ah, Avali!"

Yeah that's my concern 🤔
There isn't a real way of getting rid of that without redoing a lot of stuff and even then who knows

[NoreUhh]

There are some various issues I have with their abilities, but honestly that doesn't matter too much. The real issue I have is that because Avali have "pre established" lore (From what I know its unofficial but some people treat it like official lore) there end up being a lot of fights and arguments about them. I have seen it turn very ugly and is a hot topic issue on Starlight which I do not want to have upstream.

I'm not sure if this is possible to fully resolve, but the absolute minimum would be to change their name. I'm also not sure this is enough either as they would just be Avali in everything but name 🤔

If a general consensus were made to change their name then I would be okay with that and I'm sure many others would be as well. However I don't think pigeonholing the species because some people online will have opinion on how the "lore" of it is implemented is a good idea.

I think we should make it clear that while the Avali does have roots they don't have any particular "direction" or at least nothing set in stone. At the end of the day they are just little ammonia birds that can come from a variety of places as Killer said above.

Also! If you have concerns with their traits/abilities, please let me know. The doc is very malleable.

[SpaceLizard24]

There are some various issues I have with their abilities, but honestly that doesn't matter too much. The real issue I have is that because Avali have "pre established" lore (From what I know its unofficial but some people treat it like official lore) there end up being a lot of fights and arguments about them. I have seen it turn very ugly and is a hot topic issue on Starlight which I do not want to have upstream.

I'm not sure if this is possible to fully resolve, but the absolute minimum would be to change their name. I'm also not sure this is enough either as they would just be Avali in everything but name 🤔

I feel like this is overly cautious. It's very easy to say something along the lines of "I come from a different culture and am a different subspecies/got genetic modification somehow." Space is big, after all.

If a player is telling an avali character that their lore is "wrong" even after the character said that they're different, then that's an issue with the player, not the species.

[NoreUhh]

I will say the only "lore" that is being pushed from this document on the species is that they have cold body temperatures and have ammonia blood which I'm pretty sure is already in their official and fan-adapted lore elsewhere so, it shouldn't rouse any issues from people that would want to argue about it.

Another thing to consider as said above, is that every single character is unique in some way and I'm not here to force or suggest anything other than the basics of the species. Just like with vulpkanin, there isn't any official standing lore or suggestions with the characters other than that they are just "dog/wolf/fox" people with certain characteristics which when it comes to Avali (or whatever people would want to name them), is being treated the same.

[SpaceLizard24]

I will say the only "lore" that is being pushed from this document on the species is that they have cold body temperatures and have ammonia blood which I'm pretty sure is already in their official and fan-adapted lore elsewhere so, it shouldn't rouse any issues from people that would want to argue about it.

Another thing to consider as said above, is that every single character is unique in some way and I'm not here to force or suggest anything other than the basics of the species. Just like with vulpkanin, there isn't any official standing lore or suggestions with the characters other than that they are just "dog/wolf/fox" people with certain characteristics which when it comes to Avali (or whatever people would want to name them), is being treated the same.

oh my god im sorry, i replied to the wrong thing. I meant to reply to this message

[beck-thompson]

I feel like this is overly cautious. It's very easy to say something along the lines of "I come from a different culture and am a different subspecies/got genetic modification somehow." Space is big, after all.

If a player is telling an avali character that their lore is "wrong" even after the character said that they're different, then that's an issue with the player, not the species.

Sadly no one can control players 😔
And no, its not overly cautious I personally have seen some really nasty stuff from servers that do have them.

[NoreUhh]

Sadly no one can control players 😔 And no, its not overly cautious I personally have seen some really nasty stuff from servers that do have them.

So correct me if I'm wrong, this is in regards to the Starlight fork right? I'm not 100% sure if this is correct but they have their "own" Avali lore I think? That is where all the nastiness is coming from.

What I am proposing here in my document, there aren't any lore implications here. The only thing that could be remotely described as such is the fact they have ammonia blood and that they are colder than the average species. Now that being said, this isn't a point of contention when it comes to both types of lore that are out there for Avali that already exist ( TO MY KNOWLEDGE ). So all of this nastiness you are describing wouldn't really apply here right? Also people like that should be banned anyways for this sort of stuff, and while I know that you are trying to avoid it outright which is really fair and valid, but I sincerely doubt that it would even come up like... ever. Especially considering what I have just said above.

I don't know though, I'm not a huge lore master to be honest hahaha. Feel free to correct me on anything that I've got wrong here.

[beck-thompson]

What I am proposing here in my document, there aren't any lore implications here.

I think the thing is you are adding lore implications by naming them avali and basing them off a species that already exists 🤔.
Doing that is what causes problems, not adding the lore yourself (same with starlight). Lore or no lore it will have the same problem. I just think it would be better if the species was unique and completely removed from an already existing species with lore implications.

[NoreUhh]

I think the thing is you are adding lore implications by naming them avali and basing them off a species that already exists 🤔. Doing that is what causes problems, not adding the lore yourself (same with starlight). Lore or no lore it will have the same problem. I just think it would be better if the species was unique and completely removed from an already existing species with lore implications.

I think what I meant to say is that I'm not proposing anything NEW here at all. What kind of arguments did people have with other forks about the species specifically? If there's nothing changed or different then there's nothing to complain about or get nasty about right?

[kontakt]

The issue is that there already exists contradictory lore that has been contentious on other servers and led to some toxicity.

It's gonna be the same issue with any species that gets brought in and has baggage - if you added sergals or protogens there would be associated stuff that's going to get dragged in and brought up.

Personally I love the vibe of avali, but to make them actually distinct would take more than renaming. If that's the desired outcome, then the proposal shouldn't be "Avali", it should be "Fluffy bird critters" and then describing what about avali is worth implementing.

[NoreUhh]

My intention with the proposal isn't to resprite, or give them new sounds. Changing their name is fine with me but this "toxicity" thing seems very overblown for what it's worth.

[SlamBamActionman]

I am, despite being part of the staff team, not a furry, so I am not entering the design doc with any "lore" baggage or whatever is going on there.

I like the doorhinge sounds they make on downstreams. The little squeak is funny and other than dwarves (which have some issues in terms of spriting) we don't have any "small" species. The greatest injustice I have seen on downstreams is that not everyone plays them as a silly little goober because they clearly are silly little goobers, every single one of them.

---

In terms of unique design features, I think this document is lacking just a little something to truly set them apart; they're almost there, but not quite:

The blood being unique is good to set them apart but strictly speaking not a unique feature as can be seen with arachnids; to me it mostly reads as a saline allergy. It's totally fine to have though, not hatin'.

Faster metabolism is unique and something that I think is quite interesting, and as long as the numbers are reasonable I think it's a fair "lever to pull". Considering the healing potential this could give, I am actually in favor of the addition of the increased damage described in the Hollow Bones section. While it would be a unique trait, I do however consider it a numbers tweak and not necessarily a fully unique mechanic.

Cold preference is very whatever, honestly. I get it, they're feathery and have some fluff, but between floffy moffs and puffy puppers, I think it's a lever that has been pulled enough that it isn't an interesting addition. Plus if they're gonna be brittle to two out of three brutes, they could catch a break in terms of lasers at least.

For me, I would cut the the cold preference and find one singular additional mechanic that is truly unique. Slimes have internal storage, Vulps have leaping, Arachnids have silk, Dwarves have lacking game design, Vox have the nitrogen thing and Moths have increased zero-g speed.

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Now, to reiterate, I'm not a fuwwy. I think that the species should not be called Avali.

And it comes down to a fairly simple reason: it's a name directly referencing specific media outside of SS13/SS14. Reptilians, Mothpeople and Dwarves may be references too, but they have become fairly ubiquitous in common popular culture and Avali are nowhere near that level.

One may argue that the name is not much different from the visuals, which is also a reference, but I think it is much easier for this Avali iteration to establish its own SS14 identity with the variations and modifications visuals can afford, as opposed to the name tying it explicitly to Avali as an inspiration.

Resomi have precedent in SS13/14 so that's an option but I don't have strong opinions here. Just don't call them Binglefarts... Actually- wait, no, nevermind.

---

I think the document is otherwise well-written and structured nicely.

[beck-thompson]

My intention with the proposal isn't to resprite, or give them new sounds. Changing their name is fine with me but this "toxicity" thing seems very overblown for what it's worth.

I'm just talking about my own personal experience and also from the idea of: Why have it (arguments about lore etc..) when its not necessary?

What Slam posted is exactly my thoughts!

[Princess-Cheeseballs]

I'd say my only consideration is in regards to medical stuff.

I'd rather the saline interaction be for all species with ammonia based blood for consistency.

The upsides to faster metabolism are stronger than the downsides and there should be an additional metabolic downside to counteract that.

[lilian-paddleston]

Faster metabolism suggests to me an increased appetite…

[NoreUhh]

First of all, I just want to thank everyone for their input on this! I was not home so I couldn't reply.

For me, I would cut the the cold preference and find one singular additional mechanic that is truly unique. Slimes have internal storage, Vulps have leaping, Arachnids have silk, Dwarves have lacking game design, Vox have the nitrogen thing and Moths have increased zero-g speed.

For this do you mean get rid of their colder body temperature, or do you mean just get rid of the damage modifiers for heat and cold? I do agree it's not ideal to just do the ahh yes colder is good heat is worse like every other species does. I do sorta like how they have colder body temperature just because it's cool thematically :D

Also as for something unique... I gotta think on that. If anyone has any suggestions though, I'm all ears.

Resomi have precedent in SS13/14 so that's an option but I don't have strong opinions here. Just don't call them Binglefarts... Actually- wait, no, nevermind.

I'm completely fine and open with renaming them to Resomi since people seem to want them renamed.

I think the document is otherwise well-written and structured nicely.

Thanks for the extensive feedback on that! <3

I'd rather the saline interaction be for all species with ammonia based blood for consistency.

Super agree with this. It would be cool anyways.

The upsides to faster metabolism are stronger than the downsides and there should be an additional metabolic downside to counteract that.

I wouldn't say I exactly agree on that 100%. I do 100% believe that a faster metabolism can be very strong in certain circumstances. Originally when porting them onto my fork, they had an EXTREMELY fast metabolism because the original implementor of them just slapped on another and faster metabolizer component onto them which was REALLY jank and wayyyy too fast lol. They also originally only had blunt damage increase but I took into consideration gunfights with their metabolism so I decided maybe a 10% to 15% increase to piercing damage would be good. Haven't completely decided on that yet though.

I fixed em' up a bit while testing them and they properly have a 30% speed increase to most of their organs that process chems. With testing, it seems pretty balanced and it has a pretty heavy negative side to it. Most of it comes from their lesser effectiveness with stimulants like hyperzine and meth. Poisoning also comes into that equation but it's not something you really consider when thinking about the balance as much.

Here's a very shitty hastily-made video of some testing being done with their blood stream compared to both humans and arachnids:

VIDEO

If you had anything to suggest for extra downsides if this isn't enough, let me know c:

Faster metabolism suggests to me an increased appetite…

Yes and I think I already implemented this... Not sure though gotta test it.

[eccentricintrovert]

Reptilians, Mothpeople and Dwarves may be references too, but they have become fairly ubiquitous in common popular culture and Avali are nowhere near that level.

I'll be honest, SS13/14 is the first I'd ever heard of mothpeople. Where else are you seeing mothpeople?

One thing to consider. Citing Starlight as evidence that Avali could breed drama might be putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. It's very possible the drama is a result of, to be curt, server culture. Is there much Avali related drama on RMC, for example?

Heck Vulps, being furry-adjacent, cause drama. I've witnessed that first-hand. But when people have problems with vulps the mods shut that down. Despite the extra moderation burden, vulps were added anyway, right?